Which Haydn sonata: Sonata in C major, Hob.XVI:50
Mov. I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anpa1gJEvlM
Mov. II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2KUdwWtY4
Mov. III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neiU9HNPRrM
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The ways in which Haydn's late-in-life conception of the sonata differs from Beethoven's sonatas of 1809 commented in the lecture 4
Haydn's conception of sonata is completely classical, main point unchanged even in his late works for piano. They were of 3 movements - Allegro, slow movement & a short final rondo (in most of the cases); and the sonata-formed Allegro movement occupied the core of the piece, where it is always established the tonic-dominant harmony. If you compare scores of Haydn's sonatas and Beethoven's, Haydn's will last more or less the same each piece, both in number of pages and in the performance time, but Beethoven's have a huge range in the sense, the performance time can be 10, 15, most of them 20 to 25, and some reaching 30 minutes. All the innovations of Haydn contributed (of course he also did) were inside what I wold call the "classical mark", to enrich it from inside and thus, to maintain it. Taking the C major sonata, Hob.XVI:50, you cannot say it is boring - on the contrary, it is full of humor from the beginning, but, this is the feature of almost all Haydn's work! And his humorous character never exceeds the form, but rather serve it, making it perfect in a personal way. You will never worry where it will go or wonder if it is lost. Haydn's motives are mainly uniform, clear and short, if I dare say. They are like children's games, perhaps "hidden & found", may also have complications but never intended to be complicated. Pure and simple, under a wonderfully constructed classical mark, without preamble passages, that was each and every piano sonata of Haydn. Then, if we take a look at Beethoven's op. 81a, which is also in three movements, firstly you would think of the correlation inside these movements, instead of how they are separated upon the rules. Thus, the gravity of the work also became indifferent. Beethoven already did this needling through movements earlier, in the famous D minor sonata "Tempest" op. 31 No. 2. In the sonata "Les Adieux", again, the initial horn-like theme organized the three parts of the sonata. And also, the first movement had different tempos, with different atmosphere, which was then not rare in the middle-period Beethoven, but rarely paired with Haydn of any age. Beethoven's coda would never seem like a chore to finish the form but a poetic absorption. So what is the difference? Here Beethoven was expanding the mark, if not breaking it, to the unknown, and also in a form that was unknown, perhaps instinctively. It made his work not so uniform, but with more varieties and no clear borders. To a listener, it might be frequent to have different feelings listening to a same work in different times. But this would not happen, I bet, with those sounded, ceremonial Haydn sonatas.
Apart from differences on the general form, another aspect which can be observed here is the convey of humanism in the musical creation. Of course, life experience were different for these two composers. And they lived in different times - we must remember that Haydn was so long-lived for his era and he could become the "Papa Haydn" partly thanks to it. Haydn had a life at ease in his foreign period and later back to Vienna. He composed to his musical nature and genius, as he himself claimed: "The imagination plays me as if I were a piano" (I saw this at the entrance of his house in Vienna). Haydn had very serious works of course, but generally, music to him, I think, is a daily bread, an high-level amusement, which he did not worry a bit. However, Beethoven's music is full of real life. He left trails of self-thoughts, sometimes questions in the music, suffering, of course, and also joyful moments, like composing the fantasy op. 77 upon improvisation. And specially, he had friends and was treated as one - As we know, he didn't address his patrons like a servant to the lord. Being con-sentimental might make his music more intimate sometimes, like op. 78, short and simple, which was found to be his favorite. In Beethoven there was the tendency to express common human feelings than to show a stylistic aristocracy mood(s) which lasted till Haydn and Mozart era. In a word, Beethoven's creation were more "Renaissance", and a way of self-exploration, thanks to the time in which he lived and also to his own freedom and genius of sympathy.
----------------------------------------------------------
How do I respond to these distinctions when I listen to the music
First of all, I think it important to highlight the settlement of this assignment. Haydn died in 1809, but this was NOT the year when he composed his last sonatas - Hob.XVI:50, 51 and 52 were completed in the year 1794! And what was Beethoven then? He had had a first meeting with Haydn probably in Bonn and was then, in 1794, recently settled for two years in Vienna. So, when Beethoven composed his middle-period sonatas mentioned in the lecture 4, the time had nothing to do with Haydn's last sonatas, the latter were completed before Beethoven even published his first sonatas op. 2 (three sonatas in 1795). And again, in these early sonatas of Beethoven (BTW, dedicated to Haydn), we did find Haydn's direct influence, from material to style. For example, in the second sonata - Op. 2 No. 2. Doesn't the first phrase remember you of the opening of the C major sonata of Haydn which I choose for this assignment? And I would not mention the "Mannheim Rocket" again which is so easy to find in any composer of that time. These, could be considered in some way the legacy of the past generation, and each young artist just developed their own paths upon it, moving forward, using his advantages. So, to compare Beethoven's work in the year 1809 when Haydn died, is to compare Beethoven's own works though his development into maturity. Now when we have the middle-aged Beethoven who was suffering for years from his nephew Karl and his own deafness, among other problems and with such an artistic instinct he could not control, when we found he began to write each time a sonata in a different style (BTW, in this last sonata of this middle period, op. 81a, leading to his late works, we had already a phrase in the third movement of the "Emperor Concerto", which he also began to write in 1809 and finished around 1811, the last and the greatest piano concerto of Beethoven). Why is it the point to respond the distinctions these treasure have en compare to works of late Haydn which had completely different background? Also the musical languages they served were decided in a general way by their instruments. Haydn was more Harpsichord while Beethoven played viola and organ in his youth. We can barely find "cantabile"-like phrases in Haydn's keyboard sonatas, but frequent legato and so exquisite pedal use in Beethoven's. I mean, just to appreciate them in the different ways they deserve, right? Beethoven said "With Haydn you cannot learn anything" shortly after his study with him in Vienna, I understand this NOT as a depreciation, but just Beethoven's own nature made him to search for new ways, because he could not feel enough in the Haydn's legacy. Later, we see another similar case, a musical genius who composed like Haydn in many early works, and, specially influenced by his idol Beethoven, but he also explored a wonderful personal space of his own. His name is Franz Schubert.
Mov. I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anpa1gJEvlM
Mov. II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz2KUdwWtY4
Mov. III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neiU9HNPRrM
----------------------------------------------------------
The ways in which Haydn's late-in-life conception of the sonata differs from Beethoven's sonatas of 1809 commented in the lecture 4
Haydn's conception of sonata is completely classical, main point unchanged even in his late works for piano. They were of 3 movements - Allegro, slow movement & a short final rondo (in most of the cases); and the sonata-formed Allegro movement occupied the core of the piece, where it is always established the tonic-dominant harmony. If you compare scores of Haydn's sonatas and Beethoven's, Haydn's will last more or less the same each piece, both in number of pages and in the performance time, but Beethoven's have a huge range in the sense, the performance time can be 10, 15, most of them 20 to 25, and some reaching 30 minutes. All the innovations of Haydn contributed (of course he also did) were inside what I wold call the "classical mark", to enrich it from inside and thus, to maintain it. Taking the C major sonata, Hob.XVI:50, you cannot say it is boring - on the contrary, it is full of humor from the beginning, but, this is the feature of almost all Haydn's work! And his humorous character never exceeds the form, but rather serve it, making it perfect in a personal way. You will never worry where it will go or wonder if it is lost. Haydn's motives are mainly uniform, clear and short, if I dare say. They are like children's games, perhaps "hidden & found", may also have complications but never intended to be complicated. Pure and simple, under a wonderfully constructed classical mark, without preamble passages, that was each and every piano sonata of Haydn. Then, if we take a look at Beethoven's op. 81a, which is also in three movements, firstly you would think of the correlation inside these movements, instead of how they are separated upon the rules. Thus, the gravity of the work also became indifferent. Beethoven already did this needling through movements earlier, in the famous D minor sonata "Tempest" op. 31 No. 2. In the sonata "Les Adieux", again, the initial horn-like theme organized the three parts of the sonata. And also, the first movement had different tempos, with different atmosphere, which was then not rare in the middle-period Beethoven, but rarely paired with Haydn of any age. Beethoven's coda would never seem like a chore to finish the form but a poetic absorption. So what is the difference? Here Beethoven was expanding the mark, if not breaking it, to the unknown, and also in a form that was unknown, perhaps instinctively. It made his work not so uniform, but with more varieties and no clear borders. To a listener, it might be frequent to have different feelings listening to a same work in different times. But this would not happen, I bet, with those sounded, ceremonial Haydn sonatas.
Apart from differences on the general form, another aspect which can be observed here is the convey of humanism in the musical creation. Of course, life experience were different for these two composers. And they lived in different times - we must remember that Haydn was so long-lived for his era and he could become the "Papa Haydn" partly thanks to it. Haydn had a life at ease in his foreign period and later back to Vienna. He composed to his musical nature and genius, as he himself claimed: "The imagination plays me as if I were a piano" (I saw this at the entrance of his house in Vienna). Haydn had very serious works of course, but generally, music to him, I think, is a daily bread, an high-level amusement, which he did not worry a bit. However, Beethoven's music is full of real life. He left trails of self-thoughts, sometimes questions in the music, suffering, of course, and also joyful moments, like composing the fantasy op. 77 upon improvisation. And specially, he had friends and was treated as one - As we know, he didn't address his patrons like a servant to the lord. Being con-sentimental might make his music more intimate sometimes, like op. 78, short and simple, which was found to be his favorite. In Beethoven there was the tendency to express common human feelings than to show a stylistic aristocracy mood(s) which lasted till Haydn and Mozart era. In a word, Beethoven's creation were more "Renaissance", and a way of self-exploration, thanks to the time in which he lived and also to his own freedom and genius of sympathy.
----------------------------------------------------------
How do I respond to these distinctions when I listen to the music
First of all, I think it important to highlight the settlement of this assignment. Haydn died in 1809, but this was NOT the year when he composed his last sonatas - Hob.XVI:50, 51 and 52 were completed in the year 1794! And what was Beethoven then? He had had a first meeting with Haydn probably in Bonn and was then, in 1794, recently settled for two years in Vienna. So, when Beethoven composed his middle-period sonatas mentioned in the lecture 4, the time had nothing to do with Haydn's last sonatas, the latter were completed before Beethoven even published his first sonatas op. 2 (three sonatas in 1795). And again, in these early sonatas of Beethoven (BTW, dedicated to Haydn), we did find Haydn's direct influence, from material to style. For example, in the second sonata - Op. 2 No. 2. Doesn't the first phrase remember you of the opening of the C major sonata of Haydn which I choose for this assignment? And I would not mention the "Mannheim Rocket" again which is so easy to find in any composer of that time. These, could be considered in some way the legacy of the past generation, and each young artist just developed their own paths upon it, moving forward, using his advantages. So, to compare Beethoven's work in the year 1809 when Haydn died, is to compare Beethoven's own works though his development into maturity. Now when we have the middle-aged Beethoven who was suffering for years from his nephew Karl and his own deafness, among other problems and with such an artistic instinct he could not control, when we found he began to write each time a sonata in a different style (BTW, in this last sonata of this middle period, op. 81a, leading to his late works, we had already a phrase in the third movement of the "Emperor Concerto", which he also began to write in 1809 and finished around 1811, the last and the greatest piano concerto of Beethoven). Why is it the point to respond the distinctions these treasure have en compare to works of late Haydn which had completely different background? Also the musical languages they served were decided in a general way by their instruments. Haydn was more Harpsichord while Beethoven played viola and organ in his youth. We can barely find "cantabile"-like phrases in Haydn's keyboard sonatas, but frequent legato and so exquisite pedal use in Beethoven's. I mean, just to appreciate them in the different ways they deserve, right? Beethoven said "With Haydn you cannot learn anything" shortly after his study with him in Vienna, I understand this NOT as a depreciation, but just Beethoven's own nature made him to search for new ways, because he could not feel enough in the Haydn's legacy. Later, we see another similar case, a musical genius who composed like Haydn in many early works, and, specially influenced by his idol Beethoven, but he also explored a wonderful personal space of his own. His name is Franz Schubert.
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